Why I think the 2017 Ridgeline being fwd-based is actually clever

"Upshift" (Upshift) 01/14/2016 at 08:57 • Filed to: Ridgeline, 2017, rwd, fwd, awd, 4wd, winter, driving, Upshift

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Ever since the official reveal of the new Ridgeline, comment sections of car blogs and facebook posts all over the web have been flooding with comments from truck affictionados, enthusiasts and armchair experts claiming that, since the Ridgeline is FWD-based, it’s not a real truck. Trucks (or everything) should be rear-wheel drive like God intended! The 2017 ridgeline is a sissy van and not a real manly truck! Well, ladies and gentlemen, I’m here to tell you these people are flat-out wrong to dismiss this truck for it’s front-driveness. In fact, I think it’s rather brilliant.

The reason why I claim this is rather simple. Have you ever driven a rear-wheel-drive pickup (either rwd only or a 4wd pickup in rwd mode) in even only one inch of snow in the winter and that’s including good winter tires with absolutely no trailer or cargo? I have, many times plus it was a modern truck, and it absolutely sucks.

Pickups, even modern models, have terrible weight distribution. Most of the weight is up front, a bit like old-school muscle-cars. This translates to horrible traction when unladden on snowy and icy surfaces. Modern, body-on-frame pickups do fantastically in bad weather with 4x4 switched on yes, but it’s also the only way they are reasonably driveable without looking like the guy trying to drive an old foxbody mustang with summer tires in the opposite season. Who just wheelspins on the spot at every intersection without making forward progress.

It really is that bad. A fwd compact sedan with winter tires and an open diff will make significantly better forward progress than a rwd body-on-frame truck with equivalent quality tires. And that’s because the weight is on the drive wheels. Which should be pretty obvious.

So, the Ridgeline being fwd-based in this case actually helps to curb the bad-weather traction issues that plague traditional trucks.

Someone in a base 2wd ridgeline will struggle a lot less in winter driving than someone driving, say, a base-model rwd Colorado. And those Ridgeline owners with 4wd trucks will need to switch that mode on less than those driving a 4wd equipped traditional pickup. This, ladies and gents, should translate to better fuel economy in winter months.

In conclusion, while the ridgeline’s underpinnings may make it seem less “manly” to many, those who don’t suffer from self-esteem issues and buy a ridgeline will get to enjoy a truck that is both practical and easier to live-with if you live somewhere where the winter climate sucks terribly.

450X_FTW > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:01

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If a Holden Maloo can be considered a car, then surely the Ridgeline can be considered a truck

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:04

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Counterpoint: I have towed with a loaded FWD truck. It is less than ideal.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:08

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I agree. My truck is for work only, so it’s a third vehicle in our household. I never drive it if it’s wet or snowing outside, because an 8' bed with only the small cab yields terrible traction, even with some weight in the bed. I couldn’t imagine having to drive it in snow.

FWD won’t be why the Ridgeline isn’t adopted by “truck guys”. It just doesn't have the bro status; I bet you're gonna see most of the owners be previous Pilot and CR-V owners who want something different.

Also I hope the AWD ones are full-time AWD with just the option to “lock” the diffs in fake-4WD if needed.

BigBlock440 > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:11

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It’s not really that bad with good tires. I’ve got a set that look like this on my truck, and there’s no wheel-spin unless you want it. Sure, if you have worn down road tires it’ll be a little more difficult/fun, but it’s not really that bad. I’ve never used 4wd on the road. Also, it’s not as much the FWD-based that makes it not a real truck, it’s that it’s a unibody that makes it a car-with-a-bed.

Nonster > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:16

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Counterpoint: Parking lot snow drifting season with a 2wd Ranger is fun as all get out

uofime-2 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/14/2016 at 09:19

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Regardless of which are driven the ones for steering are nearly always the same .

I know that you know this but the importance proper trailer loading and the importance of weight distribution hitches cannot be overstated.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:19

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The old Ridgeline was a truck?

News to me.

Mercedes Streeter > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:20

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I just like the Ridgeline because it’s a seriously handsome pickup. The Silverado and the F-150 look like they’re shooting up steroids and even the Colorado is trying for a sort of mini desert truck look.

This Ridgeline is like how trucks used to look a decade ago: Not afraid to get beat up or dirty, but also jusssst pretty enough to sit in your driveway without making the leader of your HOA try to kick you out.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:22

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I’m with you. It’s finally a truck and the wheels driven won’t matter for what most people really tow/haul with their trucks in reality. Unfortunately, people don’t usually trucks based off of what they actually need.

Mike > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:28

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The new Ridgeline will be a fantastic little truck for most people. However, like DeMuro said, it will probably sell horribly. Most truck buyers I’ve met put practicality behind factors like the badge, aesthetics, and general “manliness” of the truck. The Ridgeline could have twice the tow rating and cargo capacity of an F-150 and it would still only sell a tenth of what Ford does, because that’s not what the average truck buyer is after, no matter how much they tell themselves otherwise.

Rainbow > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:44

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Also, the lack of a drive shaft is probably the reason for its massive in-bed trunk.

Party-vi > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 01/14/2016 at 09:55

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VTM4 or what ever they’re calling it these days. Center diff lock and torque-vectoring rear diff, probably BLD capacity like the Renegade’s AWD system. But VTM only operates at speeds up to 18mph IIRC.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:56

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#1. If I wanted a something that drove like a minivan, sounded like a minivan, and had a drivetrain very close to that of a minivan, I’d have bought a minivan. Not discounting it’s capabilities, I’m just saying that I think Honda IS making a mistake with the FWD thing. Besides, trucks are a cheap way into RWD fun :)

#2. I have. 99.9% of my snow driving has been in that scenario. My own is a crew cab short box and has good snows on it, it’s very good. However I’ve also driven a Silverado regular cab long box, loaded with nothing but snow and a shovel, owned by someone who doesn’t spen any money on anything if he can help it (which translates to about 70,000 km OEM all seasons) through about 4-6" of snow and found it perfectly managable. Not good, but managable. Besides, with RWD you have a chance once understeer sets in. With FWD, you don’t.

#3. See #2, it’s just about the same. Though I do have to say my truck actually has a quite good weight distribution. It was something like 54/46 for the 2wd version so add a bit to the front for the 4wd system. In any case even with a terrible weight distribution... see above about the Silverado.

#4&5. Seems obvious. And, I thought, proven fact. But still, see (yet again) #2. I had no issues keeping up with the front drivers.

#6. The theory is right, as I said in my last point. On this one I just want to poke a hole in your example. Colorado’s are great in the snow. Source—I own one and most of the people on the forums seem to agree with me

#7. I have no trouble admitting that the Ridgeline is enough truck for me. That does not make it the right choice for me. The entire concept just doesn’t work for me (see #1). Honestly, the place it makes sense in my mind is in a business scenario. In that case, people who may not like driving trucks get a more car-like vehicle to use, people who may not enjoy driving in snow get one that should be easier to operate, and the fuel bills should be lower for the company. *Your last sentence seems to show why I'm disagreeing with you. You seem to view winter driving as a chore. I like it.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Rainbow 01/14/2016 at 09:57

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Does that meant the AWD models lose that?

Justin Hughes > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 09:59

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When I was a kid I saw a VW pickup spin its front wheels madly instead of pulling the trailer with a small boat that it was hooked up to out of the water. My dad came in with his Cherokee and hauled it out. I don’t think he even needed to engage 4WD.

But people who have actual towing or cargo hauling needs can spring for the 4WD version of the Ridgeline. There’s nothing wrong with doing that if you need it. I spent enough time driving Rangers and B2300s (same thing) for courier work in Maine winters to know that even with studded snow tires, RWD pickups are terrible in slippery conditions. I thanked my experience ice racing Miatas for not getting stuck more often than I did. If those trucks were FWD I doubt they would’ve ever gotten stuck at all. They definitely would’ve been much safer to drive.

Tom McParland > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 10:12

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Last week I was heading back from Philly on the Parkway. There is a section of road under construction where the water will pool up on the passing lane. I know becuase I drive this section every day after work. Anyway, I’m heading home in a severe rainstorm and this Ranger comes flying down on the left lane. Back wheels hit the water and he starts to lose it, tail swings right, swings left and smashes into the median. I’m about 3 car lenghts back and prepare for this dude to spin out right in front of me. Guy recovers and pulls off with his bumper hanging off the truck.

I think the combo of high-speed, rear-drive, and no weight in the back was the cause of that.

Rainbow > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 01/14/2016 at 10:13

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Good point.... I’m probably wrong. I was just guessing.

Upshift > uofime-2 01/14/2016 at 10:44

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This. Proper load distribution on your trailer should make towing easier even on fwd applications.

Upshift > Mercedes Streeter 01/14/2016 at 10:45

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You make a good point. I too quote like the no-nonsense look of the new ridgeline!

Probenja > Justin Hughes 01/14/2016 at 10:56

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Maybe because the vw truck was underpowered and very light?

Upshift > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 01/14/2016 at 10:58

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Well maybe the colorado has good weight distribution but my dad’s 2010 F-150 supercrew with 6.5' bed is aweful even with good winters in just an inch or two of snow. On ice it’s worthless. Well in 2wd mode I mean.

As for driving in the snow. I like it, but I don’t just consider my own tastes and needs when thinking of why the ridgeline is brilliant. It also is the wrong fit for my own needs and preferences but for the average person it’s overkill. The average person also doesn’t really appreciate rwd for it’s driving characteristics. They only see it on a purely superficial level being “more manly-seeming”. If you don’t intend to hoon around but just haul and tow stuff and loads that don’t require anything more than a mid-size pickup’s capabilities there’s no valid reason to not consider the ridgeline unless you’re worried about “minivan-like” driving qualities which, in my opinion, stem purely from one’s ego. Because car enthusiasts should know that while a minivan won’t match a car’s driving dynamics, they will still trounce those of a true pickup truck. So with that in mind, yeah I wouldn’t mind if my truck drove more like a minivan than a truck. I prefer cars anyways so the more carlike the better.

Upshift > Nonster 01/14/2016 at 10:59

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Can’t disagree. But 90% of truck owners likely don’t engage in such shenanigans. Especially the urban ones.

Upshift > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/14/2016 at 11:00

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Exactly!

Upshift > Tom McParland 01/14/2016 at 11:02

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It sure seems like it. Rangers are very light over the rear axle and without proper weight over the drive wheels, recovering from loss of traction is likely much harder.

Upshift > Mike 01/14/2016 at 11:05

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Sadly, thankfully my best buddy is actually considering the ridgeline over all other trucks. Opting to chose for actual needs and practicality and not giving a crap about outside opinions and looks. I pride myself in my choice of friends haha.

Speaking of capabilty compared to fullsize trucks. The Honda rep at the detroit auto show said the new ridgeline should have a payload capacity close to 1600lbs which would mean it slightly beats the payload of the highest spec Ram 1500. But you know, it’s not a “real manly truck”. Riiiight.

Upshift > BigBlock440 01/14/2016 at 11:09

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Seems to depend on the truck. As I mentionned in another comment, my dad’s truck is a 2010 F-150 supercrew with a 6.5' bed and even with michelin X-ice tires in good condition it sucks horrendously in rwd mode in the snow and is undriveable on ice whereas my mazda with comparable tires does just fine.

As for it being unibody, The Honda rep at the detroit auto show said the new ridgeline’s payload capacity would be close to 1600lbs which means it would slightly edge out the current fully decked out Ram 1500's capabilities. So much for the latter being a real body-on-frame truck.

uofime-2 > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 11:19

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If you have traction issues getting moving with fwd then you have no business moving in the first place since you’re not going to be able to steer. It’s almost an idiot proofing feature.

BigBlock440 > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 11:20

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Minivans have good payload, they have to when they hold 7-8 passengers (1,000-1,500 lbs in people). That doesn’t make them a truck. Is this a truck?

or this?

No, they’re cars with beds. It’s just the classification they fall into.

Justin Hughes > Probenja 01/14/2016 at 11:33

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Light yes, but the main problem was that the weight of the trailer was taking weight off the (front) drive wheels and not leaving enough left for them to get a grip. This may not have been a problem if the same truck was RWD, where the trailer weight would add grip.

BigBlock440 > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 11:42

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I’m not sure what your hard-on is for the Ram is, sure there’s low payload versions, but the highest 1500 payload is 1,900 lbs. Which, if I’m mathing right, is a bit higher than the 1,600 of the Ridgeline.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 11:56

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Yeah, I just pointed that out about the Colorado so it’s performance could be taken in context. The F150 surprises me because the Silverado did so well though.

As for the rest, that makes sense. I see where you’re coming from now. I can see how the minivan qualities could be taken as an ego thing, but for my part I just generally dislike how they drive and far rather my truck. Though if they tuned the drive away from the preferred characteristics of soccer moms I might like it, but lets face it, I’m not the target customer. Honorable mention though: our old Montana. It had aproximately NO power, rolled like a harpooned whale in the corners, and I never minded driving it. Despite the body roll it actually handled very nicely. I don’t think I ever drove it in the snow though. I just realized yesterday, actually, that the only fwd snow experience I have is (afaicr) in and out of one snowy parking lot. Here’s the thing though: my truck and that minivan rode and handled very similarly. A little more understeer from the Montana, but duh. I don’t know what to pull from that. The Montana drove like a truck and that’s why I liked it? I like minivan handling and I’m talking out my ass?

I think it's the former though. Drove a Caravan, hated it. You could not take corners at any speed at all or you went in the ditch. The Sienna we have now handles OK, but not confidently. Really light steering with no feel, yet very sharp. It's actually quite tiring to drive, what with it responding to the slightest movement of the wheel but not revealing that with either wheel feedback or body roll.

Upshift > BigBlock440 01/14/2016 at 12:10

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That’s my own fault for quoting “The fast lane truck” and being too lazy to cross-verify the details in print.

In the Ridgeline’s defense. It’s still about the same payload rating as a body-on-frame Colorado. So there!

Upshift > uofime-2 01/14/2016 at 12:12

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Nicely put!

Upshift > BigBlock440 01/14/2016 at 12:19

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EPA still classifies it as a truck. It has more trucklike capabilities. A Van man be able to have a payload rating of 1500lbs with passengers but no van in the market will tow 5000lbs or more which even the old ridgeline could do. A mid-late 90s FullSize (not midsize) pickup could tow about 5000lbs max and yet nobody argues that a late 90s F-150 is a van and not a truck.

Sure 5000-6000lbs towing might seem pretty paltry nowadays with NEW fullsize pickups towing about double that but it’s still a pretty respectable and useful number for the vast majority of the kind of work pickup owners actually subjet to their trucks.

WiscoProud > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 01/14/2016 at 12:19

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That's my hope as well.

WiscoProud > Justin Hughes 01/14/2016 at 12:21

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Sounds like a weight distribution situation. with all the weight behind the rear axle, the rear axle basically works as a fulcrum reducing the weight over the front tires. On level ground they may have been okay, but in general you want weight over the drive wheels.

Justin Hughes > WiscoProud 01/14/2016 at 12:23

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Yes, exactly this. A FWD Ridgeline might fail here too. But at least with the Ridgeline you can just get the AWD version if you’re going to need some power at the rear for situations like this.

Upshift > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 01/14/2016 at 12:23

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I see where you’re coming from too. Some people love the driving feel from trucks and I get that but it’s not for me. There’s a reason I love my mazda3: It’s nimbleness and instant steering responses without having to move the wheel a lot at all. But the pudding will be in a proper test drive of the ridgeline.

WiscoProud > Justin Hughes 01/14/2016 at 12:26

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For that reason alone, I hope Honda only puts the towing option on AWDs. If not, you're going to have people unfairly bitching about their vehicles.

BigBlock440 > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 12:36

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The EPA also classifies the PT Cruiser as a truck. I’m not saying it’s not capable enough for most people, just that it’s not a truck.

This guy’s got a payload of 1,750 lbs, but it’s also not a truck. It doesn’t really have anything to do with “manlyness”, it’s just not a truck by the traditional definition. If your definition includes anything with a bed, like a Brat or El Camino, then I guess you would also consider the Ridgeline a truck. Most people don’t, so neither is the Ridgeline.

Upshift > BigBlock440 01/14/2016 at 12:38

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So if the F-150, Ram and Silverado moved away from body on frame and went to unibody but with similar or improved capabilities they would no longer be trucks? Dispite the capabilities, design and dimentions saying otherwise?

BigBlock440 > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 12:42

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If they shared a platform with a car, yes. If it was a dedicated truck platform, maybe. Like the SUV/CUV thing, if it shares a platform with a car it’s automatically a crossover.

Upshift > BigBlock440 01/14/2016 at 12:58

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But functionality, capabilty and PURPOSE wise, it’s still a pickup truck. Heck if we went wity the dictionary definition and not the “spiritual” definition of a pickup truck yes the el-camino would be classified as a truck. There’s nothing about unibody construction or shared platforms. The F-150 shared a platform with the expedition. Should we call it an SUV with a bed?? The tahoe isn’t a pickup truck but an SUV but we don’t call silverados SUVs with beds out back.

The side by side UTV you showed me isn’t considered a pickup truck because it’s not even classified as a road-going vehicle for one. It’s classified as a recreational off-road vehicle, especially that model since it’s not one marketed for agricultural use. Heck the definition even for the agricultural ones is in the letters UTV, Utility Task Vehicle which is also classified as an ROV because they are off-road and cannot be used as a passenger vehicle for public roads. Size, purpose, funcionality these all matter for classification way more than construction type and shared platforms.

BigBlock440 > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 13:20

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The tahoe isn’t a pickup truck but an SUV but we don’t call silverados SUVs with beds out back.

Actually, the short-bed ones I do, and people refer to their SUV’s as trucks all the time, but that’s not really the point. The Ridgline’s a Pilotamino, or maybe Odyssamino, but it’s not the FWD that’s keeping it from being a truck. Hell, the Ranchero and El Camino are RWD and most people don’t consider them trucks either. You said you do, so go ahead and consider the Ridgeline a truck, but many people won’t.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Justin Hughes 01/14/2016 at 13:42

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Yup - RWD trucks doing truck work (hauling, towing) have their drive wheels in exactly the right place.

HammerheadFistpunch > Party-vi 01/14/2016 at 13:55

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i-vtm doesn’t actually lock the center diff (doesn’t have one) but it energizes the rear drive units clutches to their max (70% of engine torque). The “lock” function works to 6 mph and goes to 10% torque after 18 mph. It also doesn’t have a rear differential, just a ring and pinion that is connected to the half shafts but clutches, so once the torque is there to the rear drive unit 100% of it can be sent to either rear wheel.

TheHondaBro > BigBlock440 01/14/2016 at 14:01

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The Ridgeline chassis, same with the previous generation, incorporates the Pilot chassis with modifications to make it stronger. It’s essentially a blend between unibody and ladder-frame.

HammerheadFistpunch > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 14:02

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I think FWD is great for this truck but its certainly not without its own set of issues.

Upshift > BigBlock440 01/14/2016 at 14:20

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So you’re basing your classifications of of personal opinion/emotion instead of logic. Here’s a final bit of info for you: While the original ridgeline was indeed pilot based, the actual structure is 93% unique to the ridgeline. So it’s only 7% pilot/SUV and 93% truck. But let’s not call it a truck, nope. You’re litterally the first person I’ve ever seen call a short bed F-150/silverado an SUV.

Upshift > HammerheadFistpunch 01/14/2016 at 14:22

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Oh definitely not. But then this setup is enough truck capabilities for over 90% of truck owners. The setbacks and benifits either way aren’t a problem if people chose the right vehicle for the right job.

Bytemite > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 14:22

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The thing I don’t get is why cars with obvious biased weight distribution use the same tire pressure for front and rear. This needs to stop. FWD cars and trucks should have higher pressure front tires and much lower pressure rear.

Traction isn’t all down to just one number. It isn’t all about poundage. If you have a heavy car with high pressure tires, the resistance and traction offered can be lower than a much lighter car with lower tire pressures.

Obviously, lower tire pressures increase contact area. But a not-so-obvious benefit needs to be discussed. Correct (in this case, lower) air pressure will slow the delivery of power to the ground and prevent breaking the threshold of traction available at any given time. A good example is when you drag the back of your hand down on a desk VS dragging your palm on the same desk. You can even push down more on the back of your hand (simulating the higher weight of a vehicle), yet the palm will offer more resistance. Why? Because the flesh of your palm flexes and slows down your sudden input of force whereas the skin on the back of your hand doesn’t have the same level of flex. So as soon as you move your hand, that same movement and force wants to act on the desk which asks for far more friction than the slower, gradual movement of the palm.

That example is the same way tires work. The sidewalls of the tire flexes like your palm does. That flex is aiding traction. If you correct the tire pressure to have the required level of flex in regards to weight, then the weight just becomes an important factor in dictating what tire pressure you should have to optimize traction.

Anyway, this is why manufacturers need to stop recommending same tire pressures all around on all their vehicles. It’s bullshit.

BigBlock440 > Upshift 01/14/2016 at 15:00

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It was mainly to give my brother-in-law a hard time. I also refer to their crossover as a minivan.

Upshift > BigBlock440 01/14/2016 at 16:19

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Harsh hahaha

functionoverfashion > Upshift 02/18/2016 at 12:58

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I agree 100%. I had a suburban a few years back and while I could get around in the snow without 4WD switched on most of the time, it still was tricky in my very hilly area. I found myself just putting it in 4 a lot more than was strictly necessary, so I could actually maintain LOWER speeds, because I wasn’t worried about making it up the next hill. But if it was FWD biased, I would have like, literally never needed 4wd in that beast. Having driven small FWD cars most of my life (with snow tires) I bet the Ridgeline would almost never need its 4wd in normal driving circumstances. So, cheers to that! I want one! I AM that guy whose pickup needs would be entirely solved by this, yet it would be a better vehicle to drive 100% of the rest of the time when it’s not being a truck. I would be totally happy with something FWD that also fit my needs as a parent of 2 with dogs, bikes, trash, etc to haul around frequently. Having an option to pop into 4wd as needed? Awesome bonus, nothing more.

FreeBSD Guy > Upshift 06/25/2017 at 16:11

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It’s not just an image thing. That transaxle will have legitimate durability issues when towing. It’s already a problem on some minivans... And that’s without a trailer.

FreeBSD Guy > Upshift 06/25/2017 at 16:16

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And tows much less.... And has a Honda engine... So no torques either.